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Is Satanism,the same as Humanism...?

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Central Scrutinizer

Post Tue Jul 19, 2005 6:35 am

Is Satanism,the same as Humanism...?

Not from what I've read.....


http://www.churchofsatan.com/home.html


I have been told 10 times now...by Satanist's....I don't know what I'm talking about...

But they have yet to clarify that,

So ....I did some reading...

Although...I am still no expert...there is some glaring fundamental differences.



Humanist's ....Don't care WHAT you believe in...believe what you want....it's Human nature...

Just keep it to yourself....Why?

Because a Humanist...doesn't buy the mystical,magical...unscientific fixation on God's and Worship.


So if you come to me with it...I will argue the point.

Humanist's don't have Magical rituals...and Icons...and symbols and fantasies.


Humanist's RECOGNISE....the RIGHT to have these...just do them at home...so I don't have to hear about it.

After examining some of the more ,intelligent sites....re: Satanism..

I am unsure why the term is used.

I think it should be Hedonism...it's closer to the mark.


I also am a bit tripped out by this revenge fixation?

Does this mean your going to blow me up in my car?

I also wonder WHY...there is a Bible...re: Satanism...

Isn't this a contradiction?

A Humanist Bible...is an Atlas,and a Anatomy book.


Also...Humanists do not have a God...It would be contrary to a Humanist stance.

From what I've read....Satanist believe the individual is a God ...hence ergo....they are dieties ,as individuals.


This is simply an imagination gone wild.


I'm not making this up...it's what I've read....apparently from reliable Satanist sites...

IF...Satanism DOESN'T recognise Satan,as a diety...why is it called that?

It turns off 90% of the people you talk to...even athiests.


I do understand it ,quite a bit more than I have...


But at every turn,I find hypocracy.


I was called a hypocrite....just recently.....by non other than a hypocrite.


I'm on a Humanist agenda....on a Humanist site.


What part of this is mis-understood?


My own Sister says,I am not WHOLE ...until I let Jesus into my life...

When should I accept that?...where does it start and stop?

What does the Satanist Bible say...I SHOULD be doing?


I am trying to help you understand MY point of view...this isn't a fight...

I say take all of the clutter,Magic...mystisism....and fantasy...and CLEAR your heads....drop all of the trappings...and just be YOU.


THAT...now...THAT...I can believe in.

Love
John
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QueenQaab

Post Tue Jul 19, 2005 7:09 am

No, Satanism is not the same as Humanism. Satanism isn't even Satanism! It is, as you suggested, Hedonism. There is only one reason to call Hedonism "Satanism" and that is to raise the hackles of everyone else.

IMO, to say, "I'm a Satanist," is to say, "I'm a selfish misfit with no sense of reality and no respect for my fellow human beings. I just want to make you uncomfortable and to visit my personal internal rage upon you."

I did a lot of reading on it, too, recently. And, I'd make the identical points you've raised, John.... only not as patiently.
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overtheedge

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Post Tue Jul 19, 2005 11:11 pm

My reading on the subject leads me to a similar tentative conclusion. Hedonism with a shock value.

I see nothing wrong with hedonism so long as you do no one else harm. No sense in throwing it in the faces of those who choose a life devoted to self-loathing and despair aka thier sinful nature. Proclamations of being a satanist tends to get people riled up. Better to keep it to yourself.

Remove pleasure and all that I see remaining is despair.

As you harm none, do as you will.
-------------------------------------------------
Definitely just my opinion.
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michael1111

Post Tue Jul 19, 2005 11:51 pm

Re: Is Satanism,the same as Humanism...?

Central Scrutinizer wrote:

Humanist's ....Don't care WHAT you believe in...believe what you want....it's Human nature...



i totally beg to differ and i can show you heaps of truth from this very forum to prove me right. youre right in thats what a humanist should be like (i know i am), but the truth of the matter is a whole other story for many people who give themselves this title...unless the humanists here are different than the humanists elsewhere.

the whole reason for this thread is based on your concern for what somebody else believes in...you are doing it by stating what you believe in, even if its got nothing to do with a god...

no offence, but i think some people need a bit of a reality check...

off to check my reality :)

michael :)
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Central Scrutinizer

Post Wed Jul 20, 2005 12:40 am

Michael....

I really don't care what you believe....

But if it makes no reasonable sense...and you say it does...I will debate it with you...

Also...If you read my post really slowly...it is in rebuttal ,to the numerous claims that Satanism...and Humanism are close,kissing cousins...

That's it...that's all.

Nothing more.

My reality is just fine ,thank you.
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michael1111

Post Wed Jul 20, 2005 1:30 am

Central Scrutinizer wrote:I really don't care what you believe....

But if it makes no reasonable sense...and you say it does...I will debate it with you...


you contradict yourself. and not only do some of you debate, but you make it your mission to try and drive others away who believe differently...thats my point.

i read it slowly...i find similarities in a religious way and even in a bit of the dogma of both, but my own philosophy would have me side with the humanists...

satanism just seems kind of childish to me. like a knee-jerk reaction to something that offends you. at least this seems a bit more rational and not so focused in proving what you arent, and mroe on what you are...

michael :)
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Central Scrutinizer

Post Wed Jul 20, 2005 1:55 am

Honestly,

What is your problem?
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Central Scrutinizer

Post Wed Jul 20, 2005 1:58 am

I mean really...

It's like someone sending you a Birthday card...and YOU accuse them of calling you old.


I give.

See ya
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michael1111

Post Wed Jul 20, 2005 2:31 am

hmmm...well this isnt quite what i was going after. just offering input and what i thought was constructive criticism. i ended up siding with your 'side'.

no need to give...i wasnt ever tying to take :)

michael :)
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dvorous

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Post Wed Jul 20, 2005 2:34 am

If they were Secular Humanists why do they bother with all that Satan stuff?

Now they can be Satanist Humanists, just like one could be a Christian Humanist, or a Jewish Humanist, or a Catholic Humanist. All those people do is (claim) to put human needs before that of a gods needs or demands.
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Amikaner

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Post Wed Jul 20, 2005 1:58 pm

http://www.spiritualhumanism.org/growth.htm
One of the essential tasks of those who recognize the truths disclosed by the methods of Spiritual Humanism is to help other people discover the validity of these methods for themselves.


This is where SH may fail...IMHO.

Those practicing Satanism, Atheism, Christain, Jedaism, Islam and other religious belief systems, are, after all is said and done, Human.

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The Nine Satanic Statements
http://www.churchofsatan.com/Pages/NineStatements.html

1. Not sure, but it does seem to be natural human behaviour.

2. This seems to side along with humanism.

3. Yep....Humanists would also declare this...replacing Satan with Humanism.

4. Yep...hits the Humanist on the head...or so it seems.

5. Turning the other cheek is something a Humanist wouldn't do either...correct?

6. Not sure what responsibility is being refered to here, but in the spirit of free will, everyone is responsible for their own actions.

7. Verified by the Theory of Evolution...a major Humanist pillar?

8. Physical, mental and/or emotional gratification, seems to be a natural human desire.

9. There is a spark of truth to this.


The Eleven Satanic Rules of the Earth
http://www.churchofsatan.com/Pages/Eleven.html

1. Seems to be good advice. Better to keep your mouth shut and seem a fool, than to speak and remove all doubt.

2. Seems to be sound advice.

3. To not do so, could be dangerous.

4. Sounds like, "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.". see 3.

5. Hmmmm.....won't go there.

6. I would interpret this as taking only when being given to. So, thieves are not welcome.

7. I guess it would depend on their definition of Magic.

8. Sounds ok.

9. This...should have been number one on the list...IMO.

10. Seems to be a rule of aboriginal peoples.

11. Assuming that destroy doesn't mean what it seems to mean...giving the benefit of the doubt...It could almost pass as Humanist.


The Nine Satanic Sins
http://www.churchofsatan.com/Pages/Sins.html

1. This seems to be a Humanist sin also...at least for some Humanists.

2. Don't really understand this...ok...I may not really understand anything Satanist...or Humanist, for that matter.

3. Yep...Humanist. I think, "Do unto others as you think they do unto you.", would fit better, though.

4. Hmmmm....

5. Seems Humanist to me.

6. Hmmm....

7. Seems to be a Humanist stance.

8. Seems almost Humanist.

9. Seems almost Humanist.



http://www.churchofsatan.com/Pages/FoundingFamily.html

An unexpected ally in the "Same Sex Marriage" struggle.
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wjmurray

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Post Wed Jul 20, 2005 6:22 pm

Amikaner wrote:http://www.spiritualhumanism.org/growth.htm
One of the essential tasks of those who recognize the truths disclosed by the methods of Spiritual Humanism is to help other people discover the validity of these methods for themselves.


This is where SH may fail...IMHO.

Those practicing Satanism, Atheism, Christain, Jedaism, Islam and other religious belief systems, are, after all is said and done, Human.

-----------------------------------------------

The Nine Satanic Statements
http://www.churchofsatan.com/Pages/NineStatements.html


Amikaner wrote:1. Not sure, but it does seem to be natural human behaviour.

It's only natural in a Hedonistic sense, not a humanistic sense. Humanism does encourage betterment of oneself and exploration but it does so for the betterment of all humanity, not just for individual indulgence. As long as one thinks only of themself rather than all humanity, they are anything but a Humanist!

Amikaner wrote:2. This seems to side along with humanism.

Not unless one actually defines vital existence. Also, humanism is not about stealing another’s work and lying but that will be discussed at the end

Amikaner wrote:3. Yep....Humanists would also declare this...replacing Satan with Humanism.


Not really as Satan is an entity or force, humanism a philosophy.

4. Yep...hits the Humanist on the head...or so it seems.

5. Turning the other cheek is something a Humanist wouldn't do either...correct?[/quote]

Dead wrong here. Just a quick perusal of the Humanist manifesto shows this to be way off target and simply vengeance, which is born of nothing more than ignorance.

From the Manifesto II:

"...critical intelligence, infused by a sense of human caring, is the best method that humanity has for resolving problems. Reason should be balanced with compassion and empathy and the whole person fulfilled."

Amikaner wrote:6. Not sure what responsibility is being refered to here, but in the spirit of free will, everyone is responsible for their own actions.

Free will is a christian ideal. It presupposes that someone give us that free will to choose between right and wrong with punishment or reward as the end result. But as in #4 and 5, this does go against the ideals of humanism. We are responsible for al humanity and should seek to have compassion for all regardless of their own selfish actions or their motivation. In the end, we are all responsible for each others actions in that we tolerate and allow some to do wrong or hurt others, accept actions that are not reasonable and ultimately breeds ignorance and contempt and do nothing to help those who are hurting themselves because we mistakenly think that we are jus responsible for ourselves. When we see these things we are responsible to act and to help - that is humanism.

Amikaner wrote:7. Verified by the Theory of Evolution...a major Humanist pillar?

Evolution does not verify the "divinity" of anything. This is just another flawed statement that alludes to the supernatural and that helps to further the arrogance and hedonistic values of satanism. We are "divinely" superior to nothing! We are simply just another biological organism struggling to find our way on this earth and eventually the universe.

Amikaner wrote:8. Physical, mental and/or emotional gratification, seems to be a natural human desire.

Let's see what are all those so-called sins: (let's just look at the 7 deadly sins)

Pride is excessive belief in one's own abilities, that interferes with the individual's recognition of the grace of God. It has been called the sin from which all others arise. Pride is also known as Vanity.

Envy is the desire for others' traits, status, abilities, or situation.

Gluttony is an inordinate desire to consume more than that which one requires.

Lust is an inordinate craving for the pleasures of the body.

Anger is manifested in the individual who spurns love and opts instead for fury. It is also known as Wrath.

Greed is the desire for material wealth or gain, ignoring the realm of the spiritual. It is also called Avarice or Covetousness.

Sloth is the avoidance of physical or spiritual work.

NONE of these are humanistic values and nothing that anyone of decency should aspire to. The fact that these represent satan makes Satanism vile and unworthy of any decent human being!!!

Amikaner wrote:9. There is a spark of truth to this.


No, there is no spark to this as Satan simply does not exist.

I simply won't go over the rest as Satanism is not Humanism. Trying to justify this stance is based upon lack of information regarding the topic at hand. I will also point out that giving credence to anything from the Satanic Bible is in and of itself faulted as the entire book is plagiarized. One thing that need to be pointed out is that the book was not written because Levey wanted to write a book to guide the church. It was written when Avon books approached Levey to write a book on satanism to take advantage of the witchcraft fad of the 60's. The book itself is an almost word for word plagiarization of 3 books – “Might is Right” by Ragnar Redbeard, John Dee's "Enochian Keys", and Ayn Rand's Atlas shrugged. Levey, his work and life are all nothing more than lies and giving any type of rationalization for this tripe is absolutely ridiculous.
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Amikaner

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Post Wed Jul 20, 2005 7:26 pm

wjmurray wrote
Not really as Satan is an entity or force, humanism a philosophy.

Where Humanity is the entity or force. No?


wjmurray wrote
Just a quick perusal of the Humanist manifesto shows this to be way off target and simply vengeance, which is born of nothing more than ignorance.
...

Reason should be balanced with compassion and empathy and the whole person fulfilled."

Preaching the Manifesto and living the Manifesto are two seperate things.

wjmurray wrote
Free will is a christian ideal.

Thanks. :wink:

wjmurray wrote
We are responsible for al humanity and should seek to have compassion for all regardless of their own selfish actions or their motivation.
...

When we see these things we are responsible to act and to help - that is humanism.

And so do Christains see themselves.
My only example is on these boards.....I don't know any other Humanists.

wjmurray wrote
Evolution does not verify the "divinity" of anything.

It verifies that we are but animals, evolved from other animals, evolved from even other animals....etc.

wjmurray wrote
No, there is no spark to this as Satan simply does not exist.

Well, the idea of going to Hell does seem to be a motivating factor of those who believe in Satan...um...well...except for the Satanists. Satan is a real as it gets for a Christain.

wjmurray wrote
I simply won't go over the rest as Satanism is not Humanism.

No problem.

wjmurray wrote
Trying to justify this stance is based upon lack of information regarding the topic at hand.

I'm not trying to justify anything. Just putting to words, what came to mind when looking over the posted site. One could say it was almost spontaneous. :wink:
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dvorous

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Post Wed Jul 20, 2005 8:10 pm

Amikaner wrote:http://www.spiritualhumanism.org/growth.htm
One of the essential tasks of those who recognize the truths disclosed by the methods of Spiritual Humanism is to help other people discover the validity of these methods for themselves.


This is where SH may fail...IMHO.

Those practicing Satanism, Atheism, Christain, Jedaism, Islam and other religious belief systems, are, after all is said and done, Human.....
Which is, of course, irrelevant. What is relevant is when a problem or situation arises who or what gets priority. If humanity gets priority, then they could be called Humanists. If there's a god, it almost always gets priority and what that god is claimed to want gets priority. Just because a few of their claims match Humanism does not mean they are Humanists in any fasion.
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michael1111

Post Wed Jul 20, 2005 11:09 pm

wjmurray wrote:Humanism does encourage betterment of oneself and exploration but it does so for the betterment of all humanity, not just for individual indulgence. As long as one thinks only of themself rather than all humanity, they are anything but a Humanist!



wow...you really are close in thinking to those who piss you off. instead of worshipping a god outside yourself, you worship the humanity you see as something also on the outside. how does thinking for oneself make one less of a humanist? i mean, id like to think im a humanist, but i do everything for myself, even when its affecting others because my actions are meant to make MY world better. its only natural that that would mean making those around me feel good, but thats just a happy by-product of me acting strictly for myself. i want a 'good' world and so i act that way. i do it for myself and in turn it gets done for all of humanity because unlike the way you see it, we are one in the same.

now im sure you will come back with something explaining how you were referring only to the hedonistic aspect of satanism compared to humanism, but its simply not true. this humanism is a religion to you and you showed your cards in the above quote. like most religions, you have placed the object of worship as being something outside yourself. im only pointing it out cuz i think its sad. you have a lot of great ideas and seem to genuinely want to make humanity a great thing, but you have to realize that it starts from within. i would think thats the spiritual part of spiritual humanism, the part you seem to sloff off so easily while not only remaining a member of a thing you only half appreciate, but pretend to totally defend in your attempts to ridicule and drive others away who seem to have a healthy respect for both sides of what this movement seems to be about.

but what do i know?

flame away...im bored...moving on. sure has been boring in here. careful what you wish for i guess...

michael :)
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michael1111

Post Thu Jul 21, 2005 12:51 am

dvorous wrote:If humanity gets priority, then they could be called Humanists. If there's a god, it almost always gets priority and what that god is claimed to want gets priority. Just because a few of their claims match Humanism does not mean they are Humanists in any fasion.


no...it just means you act exactly the same. always focused outside yourself- one waiting on god to act, while scolding those who dont wait with them, the other waiting for humanity to act, while damning those who dont heed your word. all i see is a fundamentalist, divisionist attitude in a lot of the things some of you say here. your beliefs are totally different, but you act EXACTLY the same. do you really loathe religious people, or do you just take out your frustrations on them, at not being able to shake the same behaviour they exhibit?

the one thing all you fundamentalists seem to miss, is the need to make the self a priority before all others. all you guys talk about is those crazy people who wont change to your style of thinking, while being an example of not being able to change. you are your own worst enemies...

sigh...i think its getting time to move on. i know- yay! :D

michael :)
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wjmurray

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Post Thu Jul 21, 2005 1:08 am

michael1111 wrote:
wjmurray wrote:Humanism does encourage betterment of oneself and exploration but it does so for the betterment of all humanity, not just for individual indulgence. As long as one thinks only of themself rather than all humanity, they are anything but a Humanist!



wow...you really are close in thinking to those who piss you off. instead of worshipping a god outside yourself, you worship the humanity you see as something also on the outside. how does thinking for oneself make one less of a humanist? i mean, id like to think im a humanist, but i do everything for myself, even when its affecting others because my actions are meant to make MY world better. its only natural that that would mean making those around me feel good, but thats just a happy by-product of me acting strictly for myself. i want a 'good' world and so i act that way. i do it for myself and in turn it gets done for all of humanity because unlike the way you see it, we are one in the same.

now im sure you will come back with something explaining how you were referring only to the hedonistic aspect of satanism compared to humanism, but its simply not true. this humanism is a religion to you and you showed your cards in the above quote. like most religions, you have placed the object of worship as being something outside yourself. im only pointing it out cuz i think its sad. you have a lot of great ideas and seem to genuinely want to make humanity a great thing, but you have to realize that it starts from within. i would think thats the spiritual part of spiritual humanism, the part you seem to sloff off so easily while not only remaining a member of a thing you only half appreciate, but pretend to totally defend in your attempts to ridicule and drive others away who seem to have a healthy respect for both sides of what this movement seems to be about.

but what do i know?

flame away...im bored...moving on. sure has been boring in here. careful what you wish for i guess...

michael :)


No, there is no need to come back on this as it has become abudantly clear that you simply ramble on and don't know what the heck you are talking about. You say a lot but it means nothing. You are one confused young man!
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michael1111

Post Thu Jul 21, 2005 1:25 am

wjmurray wrote:
michael1111 wrote:
wjmurray wrote:Humanism does encourage betterment of oneself and exploration but it does so for the betterment of all humanity, not just for individual indulgence. As long as one thinks only of themself rather than all humanity, they are anything but a Humanist!



wow...you really are close in thinking to those who piss you off. instead of worshipping a god outside yourself, you worship the humanity you see as something also on the outside. how does thinking for oneself make one less of a humanist? i mean, id like to think im a humanist, but i do everything for myself, even when its affecting others because my actions are meant to make MY world better. its only natural that that would mean making those around me feel good, but thats just a happy by-product of me acting strictly for myself. i want a 'good' world and so i act that way. i do it for myself and in turn it gets done for all of humanity because unlike the way you see it, we are one in the same.

now im sure you will come back with something explaining how you were referring only to the hedonistic aspect of satanism compared to humanism, but its simply not true. this humanism is a religion to you and you showed your cards in the above quote. like most religions, you have placed the object of worship as being something outside yourself. im only pointing it out cuz i think its sad. you have a lot of great ideas and seem to genuinely want to make humanity a great thing, but you have to realize that it starts from within. i would think thats the spiritual part of spiritual humanism, the part you seem to sloff off so easily while not only remaining a member of a thing you only half appreciate, but pretend to totally defend in your attempts to ridicule and drive others away who seem to have a healthy respect for both sides of what this movement seems to be about.

but what do i know?

flame away...im bored...moving on. sure has been boring in here. careful what you wish for i guess...

michael :)


No, there is no need to come back on this as it has become abudantly clear that you simply ramble on and don't know what the heck you are talking about. You say a lot but it means nothing. You are one confused young man!


well you keep telling yourself if it makes you feel better. im not basing what i wrote on that quote alone, but on much of what you say. my reply to dave works for you as well.

and yeah- i am confused, but theres not much i can do about others behaviour...

take it easy dude. i actually like a lot of what you have to say, but its your actions and how contradictory they are to those beliefs, which bums me out...

but hey- what can ya do :)

michael :)
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thejollyroger

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Post Thu Jul 21, 2005 3:35 am

Sigh.... I think I agree with Michael.

wjmurray Wrote
Dead wrong here. Just a quick perusal of the Humanist manifesto shows this to be way off target and simply vengeance, which is born of nothing more than ignorance.


A humanist in my opinion is more about talking the talk, its all in the strut.
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michael1111

Post Thu Jul 21, 2005 4:24 am

thejollyroger wrote:Sigh.... I think I agree with Michael.


well...ya dont have to sigh ya know! im not as big a bozo as some of you might think...

michael :)
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wjmurray

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Post Thu Jul 21, 2005 4:37 am

thejollyroger wrote:Sigh.... I think I agree with Michael.

wjmurray Wrote
Dead wrong here. Just a quick perusal of the Humanist manifesto shows this to be way off target and simply vengeance, which is born of nothing more than ignorance.


A humanist in my opinion is more about talking the talk, its all in the strut.


You would be wrong in agreeing with Michael on this one. The statement in question is this:

"Satan represents vengeance instead of turning the other cheek!"

Sorry, but humanism is not about vengeance. There is no decency in vengeance. If you want vengeance, there is more than enough in christianity to suit anyone. Huminists do not seek vengeance, they week justice. There is a difference for one who opens their eyes to the truth rather than getting stuck in the same old mindset that has helped make humanity less than honorable in it's means of seeking justice and decency on this earth. Learning to forgive is the first step toward peace. Continuing the ever present cycle of revenge is only going to continue us down the path to our own destruction and that is not in any way shape or form a humanist belief or goal.
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thejollyroger

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Post Thu Jul 21, 2005 5:09 am

Michael,

It was meant to be more of a "sad but true" statement of fact, not tied to the author... but now that you mention it.... :)

I guess what I was tring to illustrate was that of all the people I know, some of the best examples of good Humanists are Christians. Weather they have got to that point by way of christ or science really doesn't matter does it ?

I know folks that would help a stranger without question and they give time and the give money to help people. They are CHRISTIAN !!! and at their age they no longer couting the steps to heaven or doing what they think their ministry tells them to. They do it because it is the right thing to do and they know it !!!

Thats why it burns my ass when people call them stupid, arrogant, naive or ignorant for their beliefs. They are Human beings, some good some not so good.... just like us!!!

Humanism does encourage betterment of oneself and exploration but it does so for the betterment of all humanity, not just for individual indulgence. As long as one thinks only of themself rather than all humanity, they are anything but a Humanist!


Thats just not true.... everything is done for individual indulgence... .if it were not why would we do it ? Do you really think that there are Humanists that wake up and say "I hate helping people, but I will in the name of Humanism?" Not likely... a more true statement is that your efforts will give you good and bad days, but in the end you will be pleased with the result and pleased with yourself.
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michael1111

Post Thu Jul 21, 2005 5:11 am

im wondering if you are ever wrong, wj? i know i am. i also dont have much of a problem admitting it. so...are you ever wrong? all you seem to post is how everybody else is. i work in an industry full of people like you. the way they excel is not on their own merits, but by pointing out the faults (real or imagined) of others in order to make them seem somehow better.

youre wrong. period. you should really sit and listen to the walking contradiction you have become...

michael :)
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michael1111

Post Thu Jul 21, 2005 5:13 am

thejollyroger wrote:Michael,

It was meant to be more of a "sad but true" statement of fact, not tied to the author... but now that you mention it.... :)

I guess what I was tring to illustrate was that of all the people I know, some of the best examples of good Humanists are Christians. Weather they have got to that point by way of christ or science really doesn't matter does it ?

I know folks that would help a stranger without question and they give time and the give money to help people. They are CHRISTIAN !!! and at their age they no longer couting the steps to heaven or doing what they think their ministry tells them to. They do it because it is the right thing to do and they know it !!!

Thats why it burns my ass when people call them stupid, arrogant, naive or ignorant for their beliefs. They are Human beings, some good some not so good.... just like us!!!

Humanism does encourage betterment of oneself and exploration but it does so for the betterment of all humanity, not just for individual indulgence. As long as one thinks only of themself rather than all humanity, they are anything but a Humanist!


Thats just not true.... everything is done for individual indulgence... .if it were not why would we do it ? Do you really think that there are Humanists that wake up and say "I hate helping people, but I will in the name of Humanism?" Not likely... a more true statement is that your efforts will give you good and bad days, but in the end you will be pleased with the result and pleased with yourself.


great post and i was just razzing ya about the sigh :P

michael :)
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thejollyroger

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Post Thu Jul 21, 2005 5:20 am

You would be wrong in agreeing with Michael on this one. The statement in question is this:

"Satan represents vengeance instead of turning the other cheek!"


I know what he's talking about. It was addressed before in another post by lucifer. He made a reasonable point ... that was ultimately ignored.

The entire world punishes criminals daily. Is this not vengence or do we really think that car thieves are "rehabilitated" in prison. Are they protecting people by leaving that thief in jail for 5 years? No they are punishing him!!

Mr Murray, do you think that when a Humanist comes to power that he will remove these Christian practices?
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ZMeF420

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Post Thu Jul 21, 2005 5:49 am

The entire world punishes criminals daily. Is this not vengence or do we really think that car thieves are "rehabilitated" in prison. Are they protecting people by leaving that thief in jail for 5 years? No they are punishing him!!


it's not vengence when the law does it, it's justice. :? you know they say lady justice is blind, but i wish she would peek once in a while.that's the difference between practice and theory.

lots of questions and ideas on this topic.i am starting a new thread about crime and punishment. might be a repeat, but i don't care
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thejollyroger

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Post Thu Jul 21, 2005 5:58 am

But... but.... but the law is a result of civillization, not some foreign enforcement body from another planet. We create it and it is the way we wish it to be. I would submit that people are the law as is court gov't etc. When a man goes to prison, the law can't be held to blame.... ultimately we sent him there.

Where is that new thread Zme?... I know nothing and can't wait to be enlightened on the topic 8)
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wjmurray

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Post Thu Jul 21, 2005 6:41 am

thejollyroger wrote:
You would be wrong in agreeing with Michael on this one. The statement in question is this:

"Satan represents vengeance instead of turning the other cheek!"


I know what he's talking about. It was addressed before in another post by lucifer. He made a reasonable point ... that was ultimately ignored.

The entire world punishes criminals daily. Is this not vengence or do we really think that car thieves are "rehabilitated" in prison. Are they protecting people by leaving that thief in jail for 5 years? No they are punishing him!!

Mr Murray, do you think that when a Humanist comes to power that he will remove these Christian practices?


Law is not about vengeance, it is about upholding the social contract that we all participate in by being members of society. Vengeance is about getting even. Vengeance is seen in the blood feuds of the past. It is in the idea of an eye for an eye. It is seen when people react out of anger in order to get even. The law does not seek getting even; it seeks to prevent people from committing acts that harm others. If that can't be prevented, then those people need to be removed from society and rehabilitated. The problem is not in the law it is in a prison system that does not rehabilitate anyone but instead acts only as punishment. If we want to do something we need to start with the prison systems and at the same time eliminate capital punishment. Unfortunately, the people in society only want revenge; they really do not want justice. Revenge is more often than not much more extreme than justice would call for.

As for the basis of laws, they are not christian practices. All societies have laws, prisons systems and ways of dealing with criminals. The problem is that they are generally all flawed in that they only serve to feed vengeance and rarely is justice ever really served.

And yes, I do believe that in a society that was filled with humanists that really embodied the ideals of humanism that things would change for the better. The only problem that I see is that none of us will live to see this come to fruition. Hopefully somewhere down the line our future generations will come to see this pass.
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Central Scrutinizer

Post Thu Jul 21, 2005 7:09 am

JR...

I do random acts of Kindness...so do you....freely...

According to Christians...you are going to rot in hell...and you are dirt until you accept Jesus...

There is free coffee here... :lol:
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thejollyroger

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Post Thu Jul 21, 2005 7:11 am

Law is not about vengeance


The problem is that they are generally all flawed in that they only serve to feed vengeance and rarely is justice ever really served.


If B is correct then A is not.

Perhaps the law is not SUPPOSED to be about vengence..... but it is for whatever reason... and it is OUR justice system, therefore we are guilty of vengence. We are apparently happy about it since the common banter is not about how better to "rehabilitate" but weather we should banish people for life or just kill them outright.

Or Perhaps I'm just arguing symantics ?
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michael1111

Post Thu Jul 21, 2005 7:13 am

Central Scrutinizer wrote:JR...

I do random acts of Kindness...so do you....freely...

According to Christians...you are going to rot in hell...and you are dirt until you accept Jesus...


so lets see...that bothers you because???? are you not strong enough to sloff that out, or does your own doubt make you nervous?

i dont give a **** what anybody thinks if they lead a life that doesnt harm anybody else. im curious as to why what somebody thinks bothers you so much more than what they do, if what they are doing is good?

michael :)
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Central Scrutinizer

Post Thu Jul 21, 2005 7:30 am

You are irritating me...

JR...was inferring that Christian beliefs make this occur...

It is NOT ONLY a Christian doctrine...that results in good will towards others...

Michael...

I'm done with you tonight.

John
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michael1111

Post Thu Jul 21, 2005 7:37 am

Central Scrutinizer wrote:It is NOT ONLY a Christian doctrine...that results in good will towards others...


uhhh....when did i say that?

michael :)
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wjmurray

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Post Thu Jul 21, 2005 8:57 am

thejollyroger wrote:
Law is not about vengeance


The problem is that they are generally all flawed in that they only serve to feed vengeance and rarely is justice ever really served.


If B is correct then A is not.

Perhaps the law is not SUPPOSED to be about vengence..... but it is for whatever reason... and it is OUR justice system, therefore we are guilty of vengence. We are apparently happy about it since the common banter is not about how better to "rehabilitate" but weather we should banish people for life or just kill them outright.

Or Perhaps I'm just arguing symantics ?


Selective omission of quotes does not prove your point. Laws are distinctly different than the penal system which carries out the sentences of the courts. The fact that the prison system is flawed does not mean that the laws themselves are flaed or vengeful. It simply means there is an error in how we carry out the sentences of criminals. Sorry but your logic is flawed.
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michael1111

Post Thu Jul 21, 2005 8:58 am

wjmurray wrote:Sorry but your logic is flawed.


lol...

michael :)
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thejollyroger

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Post Thu Jul 21, 2005 9:11 am

Selective omission of quotes does not prove your point.


Then show me what I left out and show why it has relavence. Don't just throw your stone and walk away.[/quote]
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wjmurray

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Post Thu Jul 21, 2005 9:17 am

thejollyroger wrote:
Selective omission of quotes does not prove your point.


Then show me what I left out and show why it has relavence. Don't just throw your stone and walk away.
[/quote]

I already answered it and made the distinction. If you fail to see it or understand, that is not my issue! :roll:
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thejollyroger

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Post Thu Jul 21, 2005 9:50 am

I already answered it and made the distinction. If you fail to see it or understand, that is not my issue!


Well, here's how I see it. I left out nothing significant, and you were hoping to brush over it with a quick insult and be done with it. If you think I left something out... lets here it!!!
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Central Scrutinizer

Post Thu Jul 21, 2005 10:12 am

JR....Read it again...
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Amikaner

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Post Thu Jul 21, 2005 11:24 am

dvorous wrote
What is relevant is when a problem or situation arises who or what gets priority. If humanity gets priority, then they could be called Humanists. If there's a god, it almost always gets priority and what that god is claimed to want gets priority.

I agree, but Spiritual Humanism does not support God and such. The statement that I quoted is, I believe, directed towards the Spiritual Humanist. It seems to be a guideline on how to handle ones fellow Humans and help them find the way.
One of the essential tasks of those who recognize the truths disclosed by the methods of Spiritual Humanism is to help other people discover the validity of these methods for themselves.


wjmurray wrote
Law is not about vengeance, it is about upholding the social contract that we all participate in by being members of society. Vengeance is about getting even.

...

Laws are distinctly different than the penal system which carries out the sentences of the courts. The fact that the prison system is flawed does not mean that the laws themselves are flaed or vengeful. It simply means there is an error in how we carry out the sentences of criminals.


For there to be an accused, there must be an accuser. The law is merely the tool.
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Central Scrutinizer

Post Thu Jul 21, 2005 11:41 am

good point
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wjmurray

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Post Thu Jul 21, 2005 6:05 pm

Amikaner wrote:For there to be an accused, there must be an accuser. The law is merely the tool.


For there to be an accused there must be a crime, not necessarily an accuser. The state is required by our social contract to make up and uphold laws that are intended to provide peaceful and happy lives without a constant fear of violence or fear of theft of one's possessions. Although the law itself does not absolutely deter these things from happening, it does provide for a means of dealing with these and other crimes when they happen. It is necessary in order to maintain an orderly society.
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wjmurray

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Post Thu Jul 21, 2005 6:29 pm

thejollyroger wrote:
I already answered it and made the distinction. If you fail to see it or understand, that is not my issue!


Well, here's how I see it. I left out nothing significant, and you were hoping to brush over it with a quick insult and be done with it. If you think I left something out... lets here it!!!


No, I simply stated the fact that your logic is flawed through your clear omission of the differentiation of law and the prison system.

Laws establish rules of conduct and state what acts are acceptable and not acceptable in society. They are not based upon vengeance, they are there to keep the peace and maintain order in a world filled with people who act upon impulse and greed rather than thinking of others. They provide a means of dealing with those who refuse to adhere to the social contract. They are meant to prevent crimes and send abusers of the law to be rehabilitated and returned to society as useful members who will abide by the law. They are meant to protect us from those who are deviant enough to never be able to live in society without harming others. The have purpose, but that purpose is not vengeance.

Prisons, on the other hand, are not based upon laws; they are simply the institution that those who break the laws are sent to. Laws establish that there will be a prison system and that is where laws end regarding prisons. The establishment of prison boards that build and run the correctional system in each state is where the law stops participating in the legal system. The problem with prisons is that prison boards run them, not the laws. Prison boards do not do their job and create institutions that rehabilitate people; they create institutions that punish people. Prison boards and the wardens who run the prisons like their private playgrounds are the ones who ensure that prisons do not rehabilitate people, but instead create career criminals. But again it must be reiterated that the prison system is not the same as the laws that send people to prison. They are 2 distinctly different animals and must be seen as such. Because of this it is and can only been seen that while laws are not about vengeance, they are about order, prisons have become vehicles of vengeance because of the people that oversee them and abuse their power to fulfill their own agendas and ideas about how criminals should be treated rather than rehabilitated.

(I will also note that the only law that is still based upon vengeance is capital punishment and that is why I am so vehemently opposed to it. It serves no purpose except to feed the blood lust of victims and society. It serves no purpose except to keep the cycle of violence going in into perpetuity.)

I will also point out that you analogy of if B is true then A cannot be true is a logical fallacy. If the 2 are only superficially related but in fact separate entities, then both do not have to be true in order to be correct. That is an extremely basic logical fallacy taught in lower level logic and philosophy courses. You simply fell prey to the fallacy and I pointed it out, there was no rock. Unfortunately, just because you like an argument that you are making does not make it logically true.
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dvorous

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Post Thu Jul 21, 2005 9:18 pm

Amikaner wrote:dvorous wrote
What is relevant is when a problem or situation arises who or what gets priority. If humanity gets priority, then they could be called Humanists. If there's a god, it almost always gets priority and what that god is claimed to want gets priority.
I agree, but Spiritual Humanism does not support God and such. The statement that I quoted is, I believe, directed towards the Spiritual Humanist. It seems to be a guideline on how to handle ones fellow Humans and help them find the way.
I didn't say anything about "Spiritual" Humanism believing in gods. And I don't find the term "way" to be of much use. It carries too much religious baggage like a few other words do. I do not follow any "path" or any "way". I like that old cliche; I'm not a leader, or a follower but walk beside me and we'll go together.
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dvorous

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Post Thu Jul 21, 2005 9:26 pm

wjmurray wrote:Laws establish rules of conduct and state what acts are acceptable and not acceptable in society.....
Those laws do not make themselves. They are established by the society, not the government. The government, in our country, reflects what society wants.
(I will also note that the only law that is still based upon vengeance is capital punishment and that is why I am so vehemently opposed to it. It serves no purpose except to feed the blood lust of victims and society. It serves no purpose except to keep the cycle of violence going in into perpetuity.)
I have to agree with you on that. Capital punishment actually degrades the value of life.
I will also point out .....
I would also like to point out that it seems you are unable to post without personally attacking someone. Why is that?
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michael1111

Post Thu Jul 21, 2005 9:41 pm

dvorous wrote:I do not follow any "path" or any "way".


"No God. Know Peace"

michael :)
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QueenQaab

Post Thu Jul 21, 2005 9:51 pm

michael1111 wrote:
dvorous wrote:I do not follow any "path" or any "way".


"No God. Know Peace"

michael :)


michael, I'm wondering why dvorous's "motto" bothers you so much.
You've called him on it several times in the past, and now, again. It's a cool play on words, on the face of it. And it's as good for an avatar as any other. As far as I'm concerned, the reverse is also true: "Know god. No peace." So, what's up with your ongoing sarcasm about it??
Does it hit you hard in your god-center?
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michael1111

Post Thu Jul 21, 2005 9:58 pm

no...its because he cant let go of god. i just keep trying to point out how his life is revolved around god, even if its in an attempt to prove there isnt one. that quote alone is an attempt. its his struggle that strengthens the resolve of those he wishes to see changed. he does gods work.

i mean- i think a lot of the goddies are totally fooling themselves, but thats their business. i certainly dont want to showcase a mindset id like to see disappear. well thats what dave does, whether he would like to admit it or not.

and hes a jerk to others, so i have no problem being an idiot back. just talking his language...

maybe i just never forgot his treatment of me and hold a bit of grudge that makes it easy to be a dick. but hey- im only humanist :)

michael :)
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michael1111

Post Thu Jul 21, 2005 10:09 pm

like his path comment...

daves clearing a path away from god, just makes the trip easier for those travelling the other way...dave stomping his feet and swinging his hands as he beats a retreat from god, just makes the journey easier for those who pass him going the other way...

they are both on the same path. his life revolves around god, or so his avatar tells me...

michael :)
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michael1111

Post Thu Jul 21, 2005 10:19 pm

btw..in case my little 'beating a path' analogy didnt register...i was kind of picturing god in the middle of a dense jungle and dave as one of those helpig to clear the path for others wondering whether to make the journey...i mean- if dave came out of the jungle and started to scream and belittle those wondering whether they should go any further, i would think it would be human nature to just push him out of the way and just follow the path he just took away from god...thanx for clearing the brush, jerk! if a guy like you doesnt like it, its gotta be good!

his own worst enemy.

michael :)
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